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Katie and Carol talk about Tips 23, 24, 25 and 26 from Skirt Strategies: 249 Success Tips for Women in Leadership.

Tip Number 23. Dress smart and professional. Never sexy.

Tip Number 24. Look styled and well kept: nails, hair, and subtle jewelry.

Tip Number 25. Wear a minimal amount of perfume to work, or better yet, none at all.

Tip Number 26. Dress for the position to which you aspire.

Take advantage of your feminine side?  Absolutely.

Go too far and you’ve become a distraction instead of a pleasant asset to have around. This is a grey area and open to interpretation based on your personal background, what is suitable to you, and the culture of your industry.  Heels just a little too high or a skirt just a little too short send a completely different message.  Remember, unless you are in an industry where it’s all about how you look (like the fashion industry), you’d like to be valued for how you think.

Inappropriate appearance can come at a high cost so err on the side of safe.  Check yourself before walking out the door.  Bend forward in front of a mirror and see whether you are revealing too much cleavage.  We just don’t believe that peek-a-boob belongs at work.

If you don’t have cleavage, we’ll give you something else to do – bend over forward and make sure your skirt is not too short.

Professionalism for women looks different that for men. There aren’t many men that engage in trends to the extent that we women do. Instead of giving in to all of those fashion waves, see them for what they are – occasional passing fades. Stick with the classic looks and pitch the halter top.

 PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION

Hello and welcome to the Skirt Strategies podcast, the podcast to help you get the support, validation, and skills you need to accomplish your goals and really succeed in a male-dominated world, all without having to give up your incredible female strengths.

Katie: Katie Snapp, back here with you at the Skirt Strategies podcast. I’ve also got with me Carol White at the podcast studio.

Carol: At the podcast studio.

Katie: At the podcast studio in lovely downtown Burbank. We have another great episode for you. We’re going through the book, tip by tip and sometimes we put a few tips together. The book is Skirt Strategies: 249 Success Tips for Women in Leadership.

Carol: It is and we have four in a row to give you. We’re just going to hit you with a bunch of tips and these are important.

Katie: And they are related to one another. That’s why we put the four of them together. We made sense that way.

Carol: Okay so I’m going to read through them.

Katie: You know what, before you read them, as women listen to these I want them to think about how this book is not just about being a leader but it’s also about things that your mother should have told you.

Carol: Things you should have learned in kindergarten.

Katie: It was part of our inspiration. It was from the book, a book that simply was Life’s Little Instruction Book, by a guy name Brown. And it had just little tidbits of, “Oh yeah, good to know. Oh yeah, I’d like that pass that onto other people. Oh yes I’d love to pass that onto my daughters when they go into the work force.” So that to me is why our book is different than good to great.

Carol: I’ve given our book to my daughters and asked them to read it. Of course I don’t know if they have.

Katie: We should test them.

Carol: We should test them.

Katie: Okay. So, sorry for the interruption Carol.

Carol: No problem. Tip Number 23: Dress smart and professional, never sexy. I’m going to keep going and we’ll come back to all of them these. Tip Number 24: Look styled and well-kept, nails, hair and subtle jewelry. Number 25: Wear a minimal amount of perfume to work or better yet, none at all. Number 26: Dress for the position to which you aspire. I think that’s a great tip.

So let’s start back at 23: Dress smart and professional, never sexy.

Katie: How much of this is an age thing?

Carol: Uhm… I don’t think much of it should be an age thing. We all have girls; you and I have girls, lots of girls.

Katie: Girls with cleavages.

Carol: Mine don’t have cleavage. If they ever listen to this they are going to kill me. It’s not really that anymore. It’s the fact that they can’t get skirts that are longer.

Katie: Exactly.

Carol: Unless they are wearing maxi skirts now and I mean you can’t get a knee length skirt for their little – size 1 or 2 or size 0.

Katie: We did go shopping the other night. I took both my girls and they are 20 and 19, and we did have some luck, but there were – the ones that were more of the sport or the casual really were short, short. And shorts, Oh my gosh, don’t even try and find a pair of shorts. If they are a little bit long then the girls start saying, “God Mom, these are like Grandma shorts.”

Skirts, the ones that are more professional looking, do have a sense of length to them that is a little bit more appropriate so it wasn’t as bad.

So I would say it was not as bad Carol as maybe it was five years ago.

Carol: That’s true and also if you’re up in an age, 25, that you are aspiring to that next position, you probably have more choices than somebody that’s 18, 19, 20.

Katie: Right.

Carol: So let’s just not make an excuse. Just remember to dress smart and professional, never sexy. And I talked to my husband about this the other day and he said, “You know cleavage really is not acceptable, at all, ever.”

Katie: Ever? Socially?

Carol: Socially I guess it is.

Katie: At work you mean.

Carol: At work, yeah, professionally. We’re talking about at work. I don’t care how you dress otherwise. What do you think?

Katie: I agree. It’s distracting. It may be more distracting to the women than the men. I look at other women’s cleavages and I’m like, “Should she be showing that?” I guess we are more judgmental?

Carol: Did she actually go do that?

Katie: Vs. a man is distracted and gets taken in. I know that’s a generalization. That’s not necessarily true. But it just looks like you’re there for the wrong thing. And sexy is – there are a few women that just have a sexy air about them. They either have full lips or beautiful hair. You just look at them and they just look sexy. And they carry themselves that way but that’s okay. Maybe that’s God given and it’s natural.

What is it that you’re wearing at work that shows a lot of skin? Shows too much cleavage, shows too much leg? Does the heel need to be that high? When a heel is too high it is so impractical. It just makes women look like they don’t belong. If they can’t go from one office to another, and walk, well –

Carol: And I have to say, I have – there is a women in my office, and she has a perfect little body and she can wear high heels.

Katie: She walks okay in them.

Carol: She walks professionally in them shall I say, and not like a street-walker. She actually – they look good on her. They look professional. And so if you can get away with it, I’m going to give you a little bit of permission here on the high heels but –

Katie: And they are so prevalent now.

Carol: Oh they are. And the spike heels are about all you can find anymore. You can’t find any practical heels. Again generalization but I don’t shop at Naturalizer yet.

Katie: Hurts my feet to think about wearing those.

Carol: It does. So be careful about the air that you are giving out because not only will you offend the women in the room, but if the men are too distracted by you it’s not good either. You really want to be known, and this is something I’ve told my girls from the time they were very young, I’ve told them, “Be known for your brain. Be known for what you’re thinking. What’s between your ears. Don’t be known for the shoes you wear or how short your skirt can be. That’s not important. What’s important is what’s between your ears.”

Katie: Good.

Carol: So keep that in mind.

Katie: I will say that if a younger women, we have a lot of 20’s and 30’s something’s that listen to us because they don’t get that sort of information anywhere else. If they listen to this and they think, “Well you know Katie and Carol, you guys, that’s kind of old fashioned.” How many people are in your office that hold a position of authority and are over 40 or 50 and the world is becoming younger, more run by younger, the generation that’s coming in is taking over. I’m not saying we shouldn’t evolve. It’s just safer to not be on the sexy side.

Carol: It is.

Katie: All right let’s go to the next one. Tip number 24.

Carol: Look styled and well-kept, nails, hair, subtle jewelry. I would say definitely with the fingernails, there’s nothing worse than chipped nail polish to make you look unprofessional. Really nothing worse.

Katie: Just cheesy.

Carol: I actually keep in my office, nail polish remover for my staff.

Katie: You’re like the hall-mom.

Carol: I am. Well I just – I can’t stand it. I know if it’s chipped and falling apart they are just not getting the time to do it at home? So I let them do it at work.

Katie: That’s pretty funny.

Carol: And I keep my nails trimmed.

Katie: I use mine all the time. So mine don’t ever get very long.

Carol: No.

Katie: I add for a while when the – they weren’t the glue on, they were the – before that – the fake nails. Then they took a long time to do. I got to be real close friends with my name tag. They looked good. I went through that phase because I had a regular job where I was amongst some heavy hitters and I thought I really want to do something for my nails. I’d never taken care of them much before that so I started getting the fake nails that you had to brush on. They looked good. They were a pain to maintain, but it made me pay more attention to my nails and I had never paid attention to them before.

So this is from the engineer in the crowd. I’m raising my hand. The engineer in the crowd who worked in workplaces where I didn’t necessarily make sure that I was – I made sure that I was groomed but I didn’t go to the nth degree. We’re not saying go to the nth degree but put yourself, look groomed and put together.

In some workplaces it’s just not that big of a deal. You know in manufacturing I see women, a lot of women who don’t have their hair done at all, don’t wear makeup at all. They look fine. I think not wearing makeup is not an issue but I look at them and I kind of think, you know maybe just a little bit of color on your lips or something that makes you look like you put yourself together.

Katie: Well and don’t forgot that our last tip is, dress for the position to which you aspire. Keep that in mind. So do you always want to look like the girl on the shop floor? Or do you want to look like that woman who is your boss?

Katie: Right, is leading others.

Carol: Right.

Katie: Is looked up to.

Carol: So do keep that in mind and we’ll go through the rest of these. Your hair is really important. Get a decent haircut. Hello? Look at the back of your head before you leave your bathroom. There are just some things that drive me crazy.

Literally, if you look at yourself. If your hair is just one big blog mess coming in front of your face, that’s not professional. The best most professional haircuts are short and above the ear. I’m sorry. That’s for women and men. I look around the room and I look at the men in the room and I look at the women in the room and the ones with short hair always look professional.

Now, I don’t have short hair right now.

Katie: You have almost shoulder length –

Carol: But if I want to look really professional, I pull it back above my ears.

Katie: Well if you think about long hair with the ponytail.

Katie: I think that can look fine.

Carol: It’s okay.

Katie: And long hair is very in right now.

Carol: Yes it is and so long hair, pulled back, very professional. Long hair down, not so professional but acceptable as long as it’s styled. But you can’t just wear your hair down.

Katie: Well my older girl has long blond hair and she styles to the nine’s and it looks great.

Carol: It’s beautiful.

Katie: But it is a lot of hair. And of course for her age because she’s 20 it works perfectly fine.

Carol: And they do style it and keep it together.

Katie: She’s great. She loves styling her hair so she’s pretty good about that. She is the girly-girl. She works on her nails and her hair and loves having the pedicures.

Carol: Both of mine do and they literally, I think it must be an hour and a half to do their hair.

Katie: Oh my gosh.

Carol: In a full curl.

Katie: What about jewelry?

Carol: Jewelry – an interesting, one of the women when I think of jewelry, she always looks so put together. I mean, her whole outfit is obviously put together and her jewelry matches it and it’s never – I would never say it was subtle so if you’re capable of doing that. If you are capable of doing putting an outfit together with jewelry then do it. And looking professional? If you’re not, it’s easier to just do simple – simple studs.

Katie: Perfume.

Carol: It’s interesting. My first work life, as we’ve said before, was in the restaurant industry and I would send people home if they had on perfume.

Katie: Oh they could be so offensive with – especially with the smells of food.

Carol: Wine and food and everything else is just – people deplored it. That was – I never wore perfume, for 20, 30 years.

Katie: I used to wear – I had my favorite perfumes. I still have the bottles of some of them. Who knows what they smell like? I just never put it on anymore. I don’t think it’s professional. I will sometimes put a little bit on just so I can smell it but if you’re sitting close to a man at work and he can smell your perfume I just think, I don’t want to have him have the thought going through his head, “Hmm, she smells good.” I don’t want that at work. It just doesn’t fit.

So it goes back to that dressing sexy, why do you need to bring that into the room? It’s not that it’s not appropriate, it’s that it can be distracting and send the wrong message. Sorry to be a prude. It’s just unnecessary.

In fact, now that we’re talking about this, both of my daughters have started summer internships and I need to make sure that they adhere to that. Because one of them is in a professional office. The other’s at a museum. So that’s a little artsier.

Carol: And I’ve got to say that when I came out of the restaurant business I was all excited because I thought, “I can paint my nails and I can wear perfume.” And so I did for a while. I don’t much anymore because my perfume – this is how old I am. It’s called Byzance if anybody’s heard of it. Oh it’s fabulous.

And now, tip number 26: Dress for the position to which you aspire.

Katie: To a degree. I’d say dress a notch above where you are. You don’t want to dress like Queen Elizabeth.

Carol: Get your clothes at Talbots. I mean that’s where she gets her clothes.

Katie: She does?

Carol: No it’s not.

Katie: Go a notch an above. I’m not saying don’t do it for which you aspire but think about what you are aspiring to and it probably depends on the sort of job you are in. If you’re talking about a ladder, an organizational ladder where the mid-management always wears suits and the women always wear suits you don’t want to be out on the shop floor wearing that.

Carol: Right.

Katie: We have a lot of women followers at the podcast that are small business owners and it’s very easy as a small business owner to think well no one’s really paying attention to me. I make the rules so I can wear whatever I want.

Just check yourself on that. What is the image to which you want to aspire to? What do you want people who walk in to think of you as? If they don’t know a reputation that you have, they are going to make a first impression of you.

Carol: We talk a lot about The Charisma Myth, a book by Olivia Fox Cabane and she talks in there that whether we like it or not, that is the first thing that people judge us on – is the clothes you are wearing. And the way you look in them. That is the first thing they judge you on and you can’t come back and get a different first impression.

So remember that when you are going out. And I’m pretty careful in the morning. I make a decision. I look at my calendar. Do I have any meetings? If I don’t have any meetings I’ll dress down a little bit, because you never know who you’re going to see and I have my employees there but if I have a meeting I dress up.

Katie: You are such a good reminder for me because I’m way too lax.

Carol: Well you don’t go into an office every day.

Katie: But I have gone into the grocery store in sweats. And there are people in the area where I live I could run into.

Carol: And you never know who you’re going to see.

Katie: Oh my God, they saw me in my sweats. The governor was at the grocery store today.

Carol: So I’m just very careful about that because I do recognize that I have people that are looking at me and I’m representing for somebody else as well. So you are representing for your company and I think it’s a good idea to dress for the position to which you aspire.

Katie: Amen sister.

Carol: Even if the person in that position is not dressing correctly. Do it.

Katie: Well you’ll look like you fit the part. Have you ever heard somebody say, “Well she looks like she fits the part?” You might get hired because of that. You look like you fit the part.

Carol: I know somebody who has that immediately, she will come up to everybody in the room and shake hands, she’s got a really professional look, and she’s never moved up. I don’t know if it’s her – she’s never really aspired to move up or what but –

Katie: Well and I can think of the opposite that’s happened with someone with someone that I know that just is not – just doesn’t dress professionally but doesn’t behave professionally. And kind of has an I don’t know if I’d say she’s not styled, because we are not saying you have to be trendy, and styled, but isn’t it funny how you look put together.

You look at someone and you think, “You could put together an outfit.” That’s an asset. It doesn’t mean it pertains to work but if you’ve got the ability to have your wits about you and you know what looks good on you and you know how to present yourself and you know that your style is not the mullet from the 1980’s and if you know that kind of stuff, you’re at least aware of some things. I would say I look at you and if you’re that way you’re more likely to get it. You get it.

Carol: Right and you’re more likely to get – we talk about emotional intelligence and that’s part of it. Part of it is knowing yourself and being able to look at yourself and seeing yourself for who you are. I want to insert here that what does the woman do if she doesn’t know how to put herself together?

Katie: Copy someone. I look at the anchors on the national news, local – not so much. Not bad but the national news and I’m trying to think of what Katie Couric used to wear or Barbara Walters used to wear 20 or 30 years ago. I don’t know if they have ever been suits people but the men wear suits.

And if you look at the women today and I watch — generally watch The Today Show or The Morning Joe, and of course Mika Brzezinski always has something very feminine put together and I would say those anchors are an example of looking professional, composed, put together – simple, not overdone and not a suit. You don’t have to wear a suit.

Carol: Nice because every once in a while I’ll buy a fashion magazine and try to figure out something to buy. Oh here’s an outfit that I might – and none of them seem to really – they are all too either high fashion or too casual so –

Katie: Yeah.

Carol: I can’t quite get there from here but you’re right. So those news anchors are a great place to go to see what’s going on.

Katie: They are and usually they didn’t have complicated outfits. It’s not a blouse and a scarf and a skirt and a belt and long necklace. It’s not that at all. And of course on air, things look worse anyway. If you have too much, if your hair’s not smooth it just look right so it’s a good example of how to simplify and maybe simplification is what looks good.

I do think some of the stores – I like Talbots or J. Jill or one of those places. They’ll have mannequins out that will have an outfit on and usually those aren’t overdone.

Carol: Right, okay good.

Katie: Listen to us giving fashion advice.

Carol: Yeah, I don’t know if we’re qualified.

Katie: Well and the last thing that’s in this tip in if book about the, look at yourself before you walk out, if you don’t have cleavage, we’ll give you something else to do. Bend over forward and make sure your skirt isn’t too short. Bending over, is it too short?

Carol: So bend over in your mirror, if you can see cleavage, go back and put on a Dickie. If you don’t have cleavage and if your skirts too short then –

Katie: If you don’t know what a Dickie is, look it up.

Carol: And this is a Skirt Strategy.

Katie: We’ll leave it at that. We love our followers. We also love our followers if they want to get something more regularly, we have a weekly membership that holds them accountable and it goes a little farther than the podcast because it gives them a small assignment. Each month is a different topical area of women’s leadership and each week is a little bit of a piece within that so Skirtstrategies.com/membership is the place to find out about that at a fabulous cheap way to do it.

And we’ll talk to you next time.

 

(Music plays)

That’s it for this episode of the Skirt Strategies podcast. Thank you for joining us and please be sure to leave a question or comment at Skirtstrategies.com. Remember that success comes when you lead using your natural female strengths.

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