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Katie and Carol get a visit from the undercover man, a behavioral specialist who gives advice in motivating people to change in this episode of the podcast. This topic comes from their book Skirt Strategies: 249 Success Tips for Women in Leadership. Tip 44 is: Do not accept the notion that some people will never change. It’s not your call.
As soon as you decide to give up on someone, all else is bleak. Especially for that person.
This is more of a message to you about how you approach those that may look unpromising rather than accepting the fact that all people can change. Do not expect monumental growth in everyone, but don’t toss him to the wolves if you do not see potential. There may be situational factors that hold him back. There may be deeply-seeded barriers to productivity of which you are unaware.
Perhaps you make a pact with yourself that you give a person three attempts at redirection before you make a more drastic move.
At some point, there will be individuals that do not fit on your team. Some will take invested time and energy to develop, without any guaranteed outcome. If you choose not to make that investment, simply acknowledge that he belongs somewhere else. Do not conclude that he will never change.
That’s not your call.
PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION
Hello and welcome to the Skirt Strategies podcast, the podcast for tips and techniques you can use to increase your confidence and project a powerful image to get the job with a client, the raise or the promotion you deserve.
Katie: We’re back again, talking about more things that can help women. Women who are looking for better self-management, better leadership, making a better impact in the working world around them and in the personal world as well, right?
Carol: Yes.
Katie: So Katie here.
Carol: Carol here.
Katie: Here’s the next tip that we’re sharing with you. As you might know that Carol and I are delving into different areas of the book – our book Skirt Strategies: 249 Success Tips for Women in Leadership.
And we’re going through several of them. The one that were on right now, that we want you to be a part of is Tip Number 44 – Do not accept the notion that some people will never change. It’s not your call.
Carol: Now Katie, I know you had some thoughts when you wrote that. So what was your thought?
Katie: When I wrote this, I was frustrated with people giving bottom-line decisions about how people could or could not contribute to the workplace.
And in fact, many of us get so frustrated with others that we say, “Argh! That guy will never change. That woman will never change.”
And to me, that takes all of the perspective out of this woman or a person possibly being a contributing member of your team.
Carol: Right.
Katie: I wanted people to think about what somebody does contribute and whether they change or not, can they still contribute?
Carol: And is that contribution worthy of maybe a positive thought or two?
Katie: Exactly. The other piece about it is that – if they’re not going to change, it’s not your call.
Just coming with the bottom-line decision that – “Well, that person is not going to change. Therefore, we can’t do anything.” It’s not your call.
You may have to (as an effective leader) continue over and over and over again to try to get somebody to do something differently.
Carol: You might. And if they’re not going to change in a way that helps your team, is there some place you can put them…
Katie: Yes. The Government is very good at that.
Carol: Yes, I bet they are because they never want to fire anybody. And sometimes you just have to let people go and say, “Maybe they aren’t going to change and be a great part of my team, but they can be a great part of somebody’s team.”
And when you let them go, you let them know. “You’re fabulous at certain things but that’s not what we need here. Thank you very much.”
Katie: Well, you don’t ever want to take away someone’s integrity or their dignity.
Carol: Yeah.
Katie: You don’t ever want to make a bottom-line decision that – “You know what? You’re not going to fit here and you never will. Therefore, we’re moving you on.”
It might just be that – “There’s other opportunities that might be a better fit for you.” And you help drive them that direction and coach them out of their job.
Carol: Or coach them back into their job.
Really, I think that’s what tip is about – is how do you take somebody that looks like they can’t change and actually help them to change and be a better team member?
Katie: Well, here’s something that every leader needs to know. When you’re trying to influence others to do a quote – what you need them to do in order to fit in to your workplace and be a contributing member to your mission.
If you are not pushing all of the buttons/providing all of the right resources and factors in the workplace, they might not be performing. It might be your fault.
Carol: Yeah.
Katie: So I tell leaders, “Think about what you are doing that is necessary. For instance, do you layout clearly what the mission is of the organization and how they fit in? Do they understand their roles?”
I know lots of people that don’t have a clear definition of what their role is – or they don’t have goals.
Carol: Right.
Katie: Wouldn’t you feel a little lost? And I could be spinning my wheels and look like I don’t fit there – if somebody hadn’t really worked with me on that.
Carol: True.
Katie: All of your employees are not going to be mental giants and figure that out themselves.
Carol: That’s a good observation. That’s true. They’re not.
So you really do have to just keep coaching them to do the right thing. And if it looks like they’re not going to change, there are maybe…
Katie: There may be other things that going on. They need to have the resources, they need to have the training, they need to have the feedback that says, “You’re doing the right thing or the wrong thing or…”
They need to have the motivation, but that’s tricky. Because the lack of resources or the lack of training can sometimes come out as, “Oh, they’re not motivated. But they don’t know where to start.” So it’s looking like they’re not.
Again, I’d be not motivated if somebody didn’t tell me how to go do something. So people’s motivations can be very tricky. Can you motivate people?
Carol: Right.
Katie: Then last of all, they could be wrong for the job.
Carol: Yes.
Katie: If your mother died of lung cancer – you might not be the best employee for Philip Morris. That’s an example of being in the wrong job.
Carol: Right.
Katie: Or if you’re at home, taking care of an elderly parent (again, your mom comes back to the picture.)
Carol: She’s alive again!
Katie: If you’re having to take care of an elderly parent and you’re very, very distracted with it, you might not be a very good employee.
Carol: True. So look at what’s happening in their lives and maybe find that out before you try to change their behavior because maybe they’re distracted, right?
Katie: Exactly. The whole behavioral thing is a little tricky. I don’t know. You know? We should have a Behavioral Specialist sometime.
Carol: Oh! You mean like an undercover man?
Katie: I think it should be a man – and I think he should be a Behavioral Specialist.
Carol: Well, let’s see if we can do that.
Katie: Welcome into the studio, undercover man.
Undercover Man: I’m glad to be here.
Katie: Well, we’re glad you’re here too – because we need a little help into understanding into people’s behaviors and their motivations.
It’s the tip that we’re talking about here at Skirt Strategies (which we’re glad you wore your skirt by the way.)
Carol: Yes, thank you.
Katie: The tip around understanding that people might not always be able to change.
And maybe they can’t. But even if they can’t, we shouldn’t judge them for it. I don’t know. What do you think?
Undercover Man: Well, I’ve been listening to you two, talk. And it’s been very entertaining. So thank you very much, so far.
Carol: Thank you.
Undercover Man: It remains to be seen if it continues that way. But my guess is – it will.
One of the things that popped in my mind, when you mentioned the word motivation – is sort of to somewhat competing on ideas. But I don’t think they’re really competing. There’s just a different way of coming about it.
If I say I am motivated to run the Boston Marathon, what are you going to see me doing?
Katie: Practicing and jogging.
Undercover Man: Yes. So I’ll be running. I’ll be in training.
Carol: Training. There you go.
Undercover Man: If you don’t see me training – and I’m not training, then I guess I’m not really motivated.
So one way of looking at motivation – is that it is something that is inferred from behavior.
Katie: Oh, that’s good.
Carol: Yeah. I can talk all day long about running a marathon. But unless I’m actually doing something towards that, then I’m obviously not motivated.
Undercover Man: Well, it goes with the old saying, “Action speaks louder than words.”
Katie: And you don’t have to be motivated in order to do something.
Undercover Man: It helps. But motivation is also not something you have or you don’t have – it’s something that can be influenced.
Carol: So that’s what we’re talking about here. “How you do you influence somebody’s motivation?”
Undercover Man: Well, there are a couple of ways of doing it.
One is (and I use this sometimes with the other people with whom I work) if I really wanted somebody to start exercising. And I said, “I have $100 here. And you give me evidence and proof – like a videotape of you running on your treadmill. I’ll give you this $100.” And a lot of times, people will say, “I’d do that.”
Carol: Money is always motivational.
Undercover Man: Well, I would disagree. It’s not always motivational. Because there are other people who say, “No. I’m not going to do it.”
I have had people say, “No. I’m not going to do that.” And I said, “What about $1,000?”
Katie: Feeling a little better.
Carol: Right.
Undercover Man: “Maybe.” “What about $10,000?” And I have had people reject $10,000.
Carol: Oh, wow! Well, they’re probably being terribly realistic?
Undercover Man: Yes. Because I preface it by saying, “These aren’t really real. But play with me here, folks.”
Katie & Carol: Right.
Undercover Man: So when it drives on the point that motivation can be influenced for some people by external factors. Other times, it can be influenced by appealing to the individuals more internal motivation or internal locus of control.
Carol: Interesting.
Undercover Man: One of the ways I talk about that and deal with that – is through something called “Motivational Interviewing.”
Katie: What’s that, undercover man?
Undercover Man: I’m glad you asked.
Carol: Interesting.
Undercover Man: Motivational Interviewing comes from some of the behavioral research on helping people with addictions.
There’s been a number of research that suggests that “the strong intervention down your throat” kind of approach with substance abuse doesn’t work.
There are exceptions and it can work. But if you look at the research out there, it’s not that effective – it’s a confrontational approach.
Motivational is more about gently leading the horse to the water to drink, versus pulling on as tight as you can.
Katie: Okay. I get that.
Carol: Okay. Now give me an example of a person that you’re trying to motivate with that personal motivation.
Undercover Man: Well, I’ll try to make it business related. (Since that’s some of what you women professionals are talking about.)
If I were in a leadership position and I had an individual who is resistant to change. One of the things that I would do would be – to engage the individual in a conversation about what were the issues involved with that resistance.
Katie: So you get them to think through it?
Undercover Man: Exactly. And then I say, “Is there anything in it for you that would make this change in the policies and procedures in your workplace that’s a bit more palatable?”
Get the individual engaged in the discussion. And hopefully, get him or her involved in coming up with ideas of why change would be beneficial to that person.
Carol: So not just beneficial to the company or to the mission or vision, but specifically beneficial to that person.
So just think about it. Maybe if you learned how to deal with customers better, we could actually move you into a position where you would lead a team or get in…
Katie: Get a discount on the products?
Carol: Yeah. So I’m trying to think because that’s kind of monetarily motivating rather than an outside motivator.
Katie: Be a part of it. Well, when we talk about motivation quite a bit, Carol, we talk about how being a part of a bigger thing, a bigger cost like the vision of an organization can be naturally motivational.
And that’s a message for the leaders to have a strategic planner – something that says, “We’re going somewhere.”
Because when you translate that to the employees, they look at that and they say, “I want to be a part of it.” And that becomes motivational.
But that’s what’s in it for me – is I’m guessing the way you’re defining that.
Undercover Man: Yes. There can be the intrinsic motivation, as well as the extrinsic motivation of – maybe you’ll get a promotion and make more money or maybe you’ll just get a raise because you exceeded expectations significantly.
Katie: That’s good.
Carol: Yeah. But still, that’s external and then the internal comes from the other.
Undercover Man: Correct – from leading the person to reach the right conclusion, versus trying to jam it down his or her throat.
Carol: Right. Okay. I like it.
Katie: I like that. We should practice that.
Carol: In real life?
Katie: No. In a training.
Carol: I actually had somebody (one of my staff) the other day and we were doing kind of a personality based assessment.
She said, “Well, yeah that’s me. I’ll never change. I’m setting my ways. I’ll never change.”
And luckily, she has enough talent that that’s okay. She’s a little hard to get along with and we have some problems there, but it was kind of eye opening. I was like, “Whoa! What if you need to? What if you really needed to change?”
Katie: If she’s saying she’s not going to change, then it really is hopeless.
Carol: Right.
Undercover Man: I would disagree with that. Because sometimes, maybe you could setup a scenario where the person would be strongly encouraged to change with the advance warning that, “I know you’re going to be uncomfortable with this, but we want you to try it anyway.”
Because one of the coaching principles I work with – is the idea of things that are unfamiliar or uncomfortable until they’re more familiar.
Katie: That’s good, undercover man.
Carol: We work with that too. Change is difficult, but…
Katie: If it feels uncomfortable, it probably means that you’re stretching into a new area.
Carol: Right.
Undercover Man: Or something even more simple such as – “You haven’t done it before.”
Katie: Yes. That’s good. I like that. That might go on my Pinterest board of quotations.
Carol: Yeah.
Katie: And since the undercover man is anonymous, I’m going to have to take it for my credit.
Carol: That’s true. It’s all yours.
Katie: That’s the way we work here.
Undercover Man: Just sign it, UM (Undercover Man).
Katie: That’s good. So that’s very insightful with not only understanding what people’s behaviors and motivations are. But also how we can tolerate them or understand that some people will always have the option to change, unless there’s some sort of a personality disorder (or a psychopath of some sort.) And we do have those people in the workplace.
Carol: Yes, we do.
Katie: But none of them are in our Skirt Strategies tribe.
Carol: No, but definitely we do have to deal with them in our workplace.
Katie: We definitely do.
Carol: And therefore, we should positively say something about that. Undercover man, what would you do if you have somebody that maybe has a personality disorder? (And I don’t know. God, there are so many. And I’m sure you’d have to deal with them in different ways.) But maybe something mild that…
Katie: Typical.
Carol: Yeah, or typical.
Katie: Garden variety.
Undercover Man: Well, there is a type of personality called – “The Dependent Personality.”
That person typically would be hesitant to try new things. Unless here, she were gently pulled along, pushed along, let along to try new things.
So it’s coming from something within that individual, rather than the workplace. And it’s not so much that I refuse to change, but it sort of scares me.
Carol: It’s uncomfortable. I’ll tell you, I think that a lot of our support personnel are that personality.
They are very comfortable being support. They are very comfortable being in the background. They are not comfortable taking that step out to do things different or change things or learn new things. They’ve got a modus operandi and it has worked for them to this point and that’s all they’re going to do.
So you’re right. Stepping them out of that may not be the most comfortable thing for them. But if you do it right, they can do it.
Undercover Man: Yes. I think most people can. Especially if you prep them that this is going to be uncomfortable and you may not succeed right away with whatever the change efforts.
Carol: Oh, that’s good.
Katie: That it’s okay to fail?
Undercover Man: It’s okay not to succeed.
Carol: Okay, right.
Katie: Oh! That’s a way of spinning that.
Carol: There you go.
Katie: So it occurs to me, undercover man – that you add this unique and valuable perspective of different viewpoint or different behavioral viewpoint, right?
Undercover Man: Yes.
Katie: We think, probably men and women are kind of the same in this tip where we say, “Give everyone a fair chance.” Some people say people will never change. Men aren’t really much different than women and that.
Undercover Man: I think there’s a lot of overlap in between the ways men and women look at things. But there are some differences as well.
But I think in terms of change… In my experience, I haven’t seen much difference between the way men and women look at the obstacles to change or wanting to change or I don’t want to change.
Carol: Right.
Undercover Man: I’ve seen both genders do that.
Katie: You’ve seen both genders be just as stubborn.
Undercover Man: Yes, I have.
Katie: Are you stubborn, undercover man?
Undercover Man: I have been at times, yes.
Katie: Okay. I just thought I heard you admit that. I’m just kidding.
Carol: On tape. I’ve got that now.
Katie: No, he’s not stubborn. I actually don’t know who undercover man is because he’s undercover.
Carol: That’s right. And he’s in a dress.
Katie: Oh, that’s right. He’s in a skirt.
I will say that the whole reason that this tip was originally written was this view of – It wasn’t to give the perspective of – everything is so Pollyanna. I think you’re never Polly Purebred… underdog.
Carol: Yes.
Katie: And Polly Purebred was so…
Carol: Yes. It was his girlfriend, right?
Katie: Yes, and she was very pure. And she saw everything. And I think that’s where the Pollyanna came. (I don’t know. Maybe not.) But Polly Purebred.
Everyone is so Pollyanna that they see things so pure. I’m not meaning to say that everybody can change. But rather, it is we describe in the tip a little farther in the book – is that it’s too easy to jump to a conclusion about, “Oh, that person is stuck in the mud. Oh, that person is stubborn. Oh, they’re never going to change.”
[MUSIC PLAYS]
When as a leader, you have to keep trying to influence folks. You got to give it the old college try and maybe after a certain amount of time, you’d be [Unintelligible][0:20:26.9] you redirect them. But you can’t just jump to the conclusion of, “It’s not going to work.”
Carol: Yeah, and it’s not black and white. There are many shades of grey here. Oh, damn! I wish I hadn’t brought that up.
Katie: Oh, too bad.
Carol: Sorry, undercover man. That will be for next time – The Shades of Grey.
Undercover Man: I’ll be here waiting.
We’re so glad you joined us for this episode of the Skirt Strategies podcast. We’d love to hear from you with questions or comments. Email us at info@skirtstrategies.com or interact with us on Facebook.
Now more than ever, the world needs powerful, confident female leaders. And that’s what we are.
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