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The topic of this episode deals with Tip #1 from Skirt Strategies: 249 Success Tips for Women in Leadership: Identify what feminine integrity looks like and live toward leading with it.
So often we ask ourselves, “What do I want to do for a living?”
Instead, ask yourself who you want to be in this world. The answer to this question is much more inspiring and is the beginning of your journey to feminine integrity.
Who do I want to be?
A deep dive question you might want to ask is “When I’m dead what do I want to be known for?”
Definition of Integrity: the quality of being honest and having strong moral principles; moral uprightness. “she is known to be a woman of integrity”
Synonyms for Integrity: honesty, probity, rectitude, honor, good character, principle(s), ethics, morals, righteousness, morality, virtue, decency, fairness, scrupulousness, sincerity, truthfulness, trustworthiness “I never doubted his integrity”
Antonyms for Integrity: dishonesty
Definition of Morality: principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior.
Synonyms for Morality: ethics, rights and wrongs, ethicality, “the morality of nuclear weapons”, virtue, goodness, good behavior, righteousness, rectitude, uprightness, morals, principles, honesty, integrity, propriety, honor, justice, decency.
Definition of Ethics: standards/principles of behavior, mores, standards,
a particular system of values and principles of conduct, esp. one held by a specified person or society.
PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION
Hello and welcome to the Skirt Strategies podcast, the podcast to help you get the support, validation and skills you need to accomplish your goals and really succeed in a male dominated world, all without having to give up your incredible female strengths.
Katie: Welcome to Skirt Strategies podcast.
Carol: Welcome! This is Carol.
Katie: And this is Katie – bringing you a podcast, this installment, the first in a series of podcast about leadership tips straight from the book…
Carol: Skirt Strategies 249 Success Tips for Women in Leadership.
Katie: Tip Number 1 – Identify what feminine integrity looks like and live toward leading with it.
So we want to talk this podcast about that tip in particular. Why it is important to us, why it’s in the book. What you can walk away with.
Carol: And why it’s number one.
Katie: And why it’s numero uno.
You know 249 Tips are not in any necessary order.
Carol: True.
Katie: But we did want to start off with something strong.
Carol: And powerful.
Katie: So feminine integrity is pretty strong and powerful.
Carol: And integrity is integrity. I don’t know if you have to have feminine integrity, but that’s kind of a reminder of who we are at Skirt Strategies and that is – that we want you to lead with your basic human skills. And part of that is using your femininity in order to lead.
Katie: I’ll make myself vulnerable on this – right off the bat.
In the past, my career… and many of you know that my first career was – as an electrical engineer in the defense industry.
There’s a male dominated workplace – loved it. But I would not say that I was true to my natural feminine integrity.
Carol: Sure.
Katie: I was not. I had no idea at the time – that I was not living with that integrity.
Now, was I dishonest, was I disloyal, was I unrighteous? No. It wasn’t that.
It was that I was going with the flow based on being outnumbered by the way other people were leading.
Carol: Right. And we always say that. You know, you’re leading from a few different places, but one of them is your role models.
Katie: Right.
Carol: So, if you’re in the male dominated workplace, you’re going to lead like the other leaders lead – and that’s usually in a male sort of way.
Katie: Youth has a lot to do with it too, because of course… you know when I first started as an engineer – I was in my young 20’s, early 20’s. And you don’t do so much self grasping at that time. (That’s figuratively speaking, by the way.)
And you don’t do so much of the understanding that what you’re looking inward to where are my intents coming from. You’re more influenced by the people that are around you. I think that’s just immaturity.
Carol: Sure.
Katie: Nothing unusual. It’s just part of figuring out.
Carol: Who you are.
Katie: Yes. And we have a lot of young followers. We get a lot of women that have had no leadership training, no leadership support – maybe they’ve had some mentoring. But if so, it hasn’t been that effective or they haven’t quite figured out how to do it.
So, I love that women follow us with this understanding that we have the answers on some things.
Carol: Yes we do. We have all the answers on everything, really. And it’s going to take us a while to get them all out there.
Katie: I love that.
Carol: No, you know I don’t believe that. But what I love about this question and especially for those women who are younger – is that you can choose how you lead. And the earlier you do that, the better off you’ll be.
So, in this tip, it talks about… So often we ask ourselves, “What do I want to do for a living?” And instead, ask yourself who you want to be in this world.
Katie: I would have never asked myself that. And I was in a very isolated workplace where there wouldn’t be anybody around me that could have sat down across the table with a cup of coffee or a glass of wine and…
Carol: And actually said, “Who do you want to be?”
Katie: Step me through that.
Carol: Sure. And that’s a huge question. I mean, I don’t know that I’ve answered it for myself. Had I answered it earlier in life though? The integrity part would have been easier.
Katie: Aha.
Carol: I really do think that if you have… and it’s the whole moral compass and it’s the integrity compass. If you have a set of values that you live from, then it’s easy to make decisions. Then you never have to think about making those decisions.
Katie: Boy! That’s a big road. I mean, that’s a long road and it’s one that constantly changes.
Carol: Well, it is. It is, but earlier you can do this… and even if you’re doing it late in life.
What does integrity look like and can’t you point out somebody in your life that has so much integrity and you just love them for it? They are always spot on.
Katie: That’s why role models can be so powerful.
I’m kind of a mimicker. It’s easy for me to see somebody doing something and say “Okay, I get it. I get it.” Because I just saw it in action.
Role models serve that purpose. You see the way that they conduct themselves and if it’s something that you get and you agree with and you think it might be natural for you or even if it’s unnatural – as long as it’s a little bit you, you can grow towards it.
For example; When I first started consulting – I was on the client side of a consulting company and this was a rather large consulting firm out of the East Coast that was in the organization that I worked in.
We had 2 or 3 of the regular principals that were in – working with us in our engineering company. All of 3 of them, I just was wowed by.
I remember watching them lead some of the workshops and consulting and training that we did through this consulting firm. I remember watching them and thinking, “Oh I could never do that.” But it was something that I looked to.
Carol: Right.
Katie: About 6 months after that, they recruited me.
Carol: Oh wow!
Katie: They picked me out of the whole crowd and recruited me to be one of their associates. That’s when I left the engineering world and went in to the consulting world. And that was 20 years ago, 20-25 years ago.
Now I look back on what they were doing… And this is not boasting, but I’m clearly doing it and then some. It was a big step forward for me, but it laid the path for, “Here’s where I am going.”
So to me that wasn’t… (and they were all men, so this is not feminine integrity) but that was certainly growth in my career and how I wanted to do it. And they had moral compasses. That’s why I loved that consulting company because they had this.
Everyone had kind of a common moral compass that was really positive, really easy to work with and I loved it.
Carol: How wonderful. They say – people are willing to work for people who have that kind of integrity.
You know some of the things I did as a young manager was… Honestly, I came into it when I was 21 – when I owned my first restaurant.
So I was kind of thrown into it. I had had a couple of jobs prior to that, but they weren’t on that scale. So I’m managing 30 people – boom.
Katie: So do you remember what it was like at that time, Carol? Do you remember thinking, “Oh, my God! I do not know what I am doing”
Carol: Oh yeah. And I’ve got to pretend like I do, because these people are looking towards me to have some of the answers. I mean, not that I was faking it, but I was faking it to a certain degree.
The other thing I did – was I really did think about how I was going to be a manager. Because I’d had enough managers by that point in my life that I knew who I liked and who I didn’t.
And I think one of my basic tenants was – I was going to know all the jobs, I was going to be able to do all the jobs in the entire restaurant, before I would start telling other people what to do.
So I got in, I dish-washed for lunch like for an entire week. It was grueling, it was nasty. But I knew how to do it. And I knew what…
Katie: Did you have dish-panned hands after that?
Carol: It’s actually kind of fun in the restaurant. Because you get a big sprayer and you’re just…
Katie: Oh yeah. I’ve done that.
Carol: It’s on huge level.
Katie: Really powerful?
Carol: So, I did all the jobs and I was going to manage from that. I know the job because I’ve been there.
Katie: Listen to how that had an approach in an integrity. And so here you are, you’re a leader.
And I want to talk also in just a second – about the integrity that happens when you’re suddenly the boss. And you’re not loyal to yourself – you think you have to behave somewhere else, like something else, but you kind of have a plan.
“Here’s what I think I need to have in my talent, in my experience, in my background. So that as a boss, they all look at me and they respect me and I know what I’m talking about.”
That’s a plan. That’s so simple, but that’s a plan – even on a small, short-term scale.
I’m working with someone right now who’s the boss. Her boss in this organization – we spend a lot of time coaching around because there is no plan. And there is a lot of disruptive interruption – like things coming out a left field, where the boss will say something and now my client, (I’m saying it very generally.)
Carol: Good.
Katie: My client will be like, “And then she said this…” And I have no idea where that is coming from and it’s just sending me inconsistent messages.
Having that consistency around your integrity in what you want to be and what you want to be known for – take a stab at it, at least have something.
Carol: It’s true. If people are looking at you with confusion, then maybe you should go back, figure out what it is you need to be instructing them and come back with clear, concise instruction.
Katie: Companies are good now at having Personal Development Plans – PDP’s.
Carol: Right.
Katie: Personal Development Plans. PDP’s or whatever else they might have. So during their annual view they write down what they…
I have looked at a lot of those and there are still more of them that don’t have and do, more that don’t have anything along the lines of personal effectiveness development.
Like, “Go to a course to achieve your certification for blah, blah, blah. Make sure that you attend such and such.”
But rarely are they around more… I don’t want to say soft skills, but…
Carol: Introspective?
Katie: Yeah, maybe introspective.
Carol: Yeah. “I’m going to actually spend a year – thinking about where I want to be and how I’m going to manage other people or…”
Katie: Yes, yes.
Carol: Was that what you’re saying?
Katie: Yes. “What type of a leader you are?” I did never have – “What type of a leader do you want to be?” But they might have – “Get the skills of dishwashing and setting the table.”
I mean, they might have that because that’s real measurable and that specific. But they won’t have, “How do you interact with others? How do you provide leadership for others? How do you manage conflict when employees have something?”
So to me there’s an integrity around that – that so many women can just articulate. And even if you’re only halfway right and you start somewhere and then, you live in it for a little while and then you realize, “Maybe that’s not exactly where my strengths are. I’m going to go more this way.”
Carol: Yeah.
Katie: I wanted to bring up the integrity that happens when you are lack of it or when you get promoted.
Carol: Oh! That’s so hard. I’ve promoted so many people in my life and I’ve seen it just… especially women. I think they have a harder time with it.
Katie: Did you see them change?
Carol: I did. I saw them take on a very male based skillset when I was promoting them for their ability to bring a group together, a team and make a really great team and kind of motivate that team.
Then you promote them. And all of a sudden, they take on kind of a male skillset of – “Okay. You shouldn’t have done that.” And it’s very demanding.
Katie: “Here’s how I think I should act.”
Carol: Yeah, yeah. “Here’s how I think I should act – as a manager of these people.”
Katie: And mostly, because it was many of the managers that they saw that were in control or command and controlling men.
Carol: Right.
Katie: It could be. I mean, that maybe…
Carol: And I was really looking for a team leader. I saw that in them – therefore, I promoted them. And then, I saw them going a different direction.
And interestingly, it’s a hard rope to hold. It really is a hard line of – “How do I remain friends and get them to work in a team and all of that? But then, also be the disciplinarian.” Not easy.
But here’s the thing in women. You’re going to have to learn to do it when you have kids. So learn it now.
Katie: It became easier after I had kids.
Carol: Interesting. Tell me about that.
Katie: Well, if you’ve ever run into – before you have kids. If you’re running kids in public and they’re misbehaving or they’re pushing next to you at the McDonald’s line. Before you had kids, you were just kind of like, “Oh, this kid.”
Carol: I know. “Does this mother not see this?”
Katie: And now, I turn around and say, “Okay sweetie. Go stand by your mom.” I just parent them.
Carol: Right.
Katie: It’s very easy to do. And I don’t think that’s inappropriate. I mean, I think there is parenting in public of strangers that at some point – could be inappropriate. But I think for the most part, you have the comfort and the ability to be more empathic with people.
Carol: With somebody else’s kids too.
Katie: Yeah.
Carol: And they look at you and they’re like, “Oh! My mother has been saying that for half an hour. She said that. Oh my God! It must be true.” And all of a sudden, they get silent and stare at you.
Katie: And isn’t leading – just a little bit like that? Because you have to be able to have some backbone – around telling somebody something.
Carol: True. And it is like that.
Katie: And I don’t know – as I get a little chicken sometimes with, “I don’t want to offend somebody. I don’t want to say it the wrong way.” I mean, you’re not that way.
Carol: Right. I’ve never seen you chicken. Katie always tells it like it is.
Katie: I do. But let me think of a situation where I should have been more assertive.
Carol: Yeah.
Katie: Well, I was in a meeting the other day – with a client that I do some training with. And they had kind of said, “Here’s what our expectation is – for the next time we work together.”
And it surprised me. It wasn’t unreasonable. It was just – I wonder whether there was something else behind it.
So afterwards, I walked away from that. And there were a couple of things that I meant to ask. But because I was a little bit thrown by what they said, I was taken aback. I couldn’t tell if maybe my feelings were hurt, because I couldn’t tell if they were trying to get at something or not.
And so instead of bringing it up at the time, I wanted to remain composed. So I didn’t bring it up. And that’s where I get mad at myself. Because I’m like, “No, no, no!”
When you’re having a reaction… (And this is in so many of our other tips.) When you’re having an emotional reaction… And I don’t mean your emotions are out of control, but you just have some sort of reaction that’s – “Hmm. I wonder.” “Ooh! That kind of stung.” You know that sort of thing. You don’t behave the way you think you should.
Carol: Right. Because you’re reactionary.
Katie: Right. And often, it’s because – for me, it’s because I’m being safe.
So now, this goes back to feminine integrity. Because it’s now – was I showing my own personal integrity, was standing up for myself at the time and saying, “Tell me more about what you might be getting at – when you say that? Did you see a behavior in such a way?”
And in fact, I did pinpoint an example of working with somebody in their staff. They thought I was taking advantage of that person.
And in actuality… Well, they wanted to make sure that I wasn’t. I don’t think it looked like I was. But I would have easily worked more closely with that person – if I’ve known it’d been an okay thing to do.
So here’s an example. I’m staying kind of general again. But here’s an example of a role that I had with someone that looked like I was behaving in a different way than what I meant to come off as. So I think my integrity may have been compromised because I wasn’t straightforward with my intent.
Carol: Got it.
Katie: Does that make sense?
Carol: Yeah, sure. The more straightforward you can be with somebody – that is part of integrity.
Katie: Yeah.
Carol: You know, just telling it like it is. “It’s not different than this. This is how it is. And if there’s something I can do different, you let me know. But this was my intent. If it came off different – again, let me know.”
Katie: Yes, yes. And so, I did follow it up with a statement around because I really like opening up a conversation with this – “What’s important to me?”
So I did follow it up with a statement of, “I want you all to know that what’s important to me when we work together – is to have the content waterproof.” And whether that means – “Somebody on your staff has to go the extra mile that do edits for me or whatever.”
That’s kind of secondary to me. But what I’m getting at is, “This is what’s important to me.” So I made sure that I said that. So there was a part of my integrity that I’ve defended at that point. But I did walk away with thinking, “I’m not sure whether I got to where they were going with some of their statements.”
Carol: Interesting.
Katie: Communication is a funny thing.
Carol: It is a funny thing. You know, one of the things I did – looking at this tip – is identify what integrity is. And Google’s definition of integrity – is the quality of being honest and having a strong moral principles and moral uprightness.
Now, so what’s moral? Morality – is principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior. That’s pretty simple.
Katie: But are we talking about that though – with women’s femininity?
Carol: No. Well, I think we’re talking about integrity. I mean, feminine integrity is important, but integrity at the base of that – is really what’s most important here. It’s just having integrity.
And by feminine integrity – we just mean, “Don’t walk away from your instincts. Don’t walk away from what feels right as the person you are – to do in the situation.”
Katie: Yes. And shall we be clear that we’re not saying it’s wrong to act like a man – if it might be more natural for you or appropriate in a certain situation.
Carol: Absolutely. And I will say in many cases, I can come off very strong. It’s interesting to me, because I don’t think of myself as a really strong woman, but I think everybody else does.
Katie: You’re firm.
Carol: I’m fairly firm, but I’m also very opinionated. And I think that’s where I come off as – people thinking I’m stronger than I am and it may come off a little bit male oriented because I am so firm in my opinions and I’m assertive because I have strong opinions.
So, interesting. People do look at me and I’ve had men tell me before, “Gosh! Your husband is a really great guy. I don’t think anybody else would have married you.”
Katie: Would they say that second part or they infer that second part?
Carol: Oh, they inferred the second part. But its more – “Well, why wouldn’t anybody love me?” And they’re just inferring that I am a strong woman.
Katie: Oh! I can’t imagine somebody saying that about you.
Carol: Oh, it happened more than once.
Katie: But now I’m thinking – when someone says, “Your husband, Katie – is the greatest guy.” I wonder if that’s what they’re getting at now.
Carol: He puts up with you.
Katie: No, he gets to live with me.
Carol: That’s right. That’s what I think of.
Katie: Well, I’m just looking at the difference between morality and integrity for our purpose. Because I don’t want women to walk away –feeling like, “Oh, I’ve been bad – because I haven’t been true to myself.”
It’s very natural to be bearing some of those instincts. And that is really one of our objectives – is to bring that out more.
Carol: Absolutely, yes. Just to make us all more comfortable with those things that are natural to us.
Katie: Just be aware of it.
Carol: Yeah. And every time Katie and I get together, it reminds me to be aware of that side of me which doesn’t always come out because I’m trying to act in a certain way. I’m trying to be assertive.
Katie: Yeah. So that goes back to the example that I have with. And maybe many of you listeners are in this stage of your career – especially if you’re younger – those early years where I was in a male based work environment. And so I behaved the way that everyone else was behaving. I would’ve never been able to say. I don’t know what I would’ve looked like being myself. Do I mean that?
Carol: No, that’s actually… I mean, I think you’re still building who yourself is – through your teenage years and your early 20’s. You’re building who you’re going to be.
Katie: So could you take the way you behave with your friends when you’re at happy hour with them?
Carol: Oh, absolutely.
Katie: Or the way that you’re doing a little project with your family? Could you look at the leadership flavor of that and how you conduct yourself and say, “That’s more me?” I don’t know whether it translates…
Carol: “That’s really me. That’s really where I’m comfortable.”
Katie: And “What’s that look like at work?”
Carol: And I’ve got to tell you. So I’ve been interviewing for a couple of job openings and I interview. I don’t care where people are starting.
So I’ve interviewed a lot of folks who are fresh out of college. Some folks that are – this is their 20th job and they’re a little bit older.
Interesting. And I like the fact that a lot of the younger women are telling me. “Here’s how I work at school. Here’s how I work in teams. Here’s how I stay organized with my homework and how I get it all done.”
So even if you’re not in a management position or a leadership position right now, this is how you’re conducting yourself in these situations.
Katie: I would say – if you’re in almost any job, (especially if you’re listening to a podcast on women’s leadership) but almost any job. Whether you have direct reports or not, you’re responsible for self-management in the least and being effective and making something happen. That takes leadership. That takes self-management and leadership.
Carol: Yeah. And some of these young women are keeping it together – under very strenuous circumstances.
Katie: Exactly.
Carol: And I say young women only, because that’s who applied for the job – which was interesting.
I had one man apply for the job and I did give him an interview because he looked good on paper.
Katie: How long ago was that?
Carol: Last week.
Katie: Oh, okay.
Carol: Yeah. So it was a lesson in our education system. It was a lesson in just people’s personalities when they get into an interview. “Oh! I learned so much.”
Katie: Yes.
Carol: Not just about them, but about me and about me and about other people.
Katie: I did a class years ago. I did taught a class because somebody gave me the leader guide – so I wasn’t completely coming from zero on interviewing. Giving interviews and going into an interview. And it’s really a lot to think of.
Carol: Do you still have that content?
Katie: I don’t know. I might.
Carol: Because if we do – we might want to do a podcast on that.
Katie: Oh, yeah. Okay.
Carol: If you’re interested, please send us a message. Leave us a message on our podcast.
We actually have something called, “Speak Pipe.” And if you leave a message, it’s an audio message on our podcast web blog.
Katie: Where you can leave an audio message.
Carol: And if we play your audio on one of our next podcast, we will send you an autographed book.
What do you think about that? That’s kind of fascinating and fun.
Katie: I like it!
Carol: But I do like the idea of possibly doing a podcast on interviewing and interview skills.
Katie: Because there are some very basic things to keep in mind that differentiate you from everybody else – as soon as you keep those in mind.
Carol: Since we’re talking about integrity. Can I tell you just really quickly what the young man did in the interview?
Katie: Sure. What?
Carol: He came in. He was totally unfocused. He sat down with his phone, placed it under the table – just where he could barely see it, where I can see it. And he preceded to I believe – text, throughout the interview.
Katie: Oh! That doesn’t seem right.
Carol: It was really bad. And we’ve talked about this – in some of our charisma talk. The minute somebody unfocuses from you, you lose your ability to keep talking to them.
Katie: You’ve lost presence.
Carol: I was completely distracted and I couldn’t talk to him anymore. And I finally just said, “I’m sorry, but am I bothering you?”
Katie: Did you?
Carol: I did.
Katie: And did he fess up?
Carol: And we has like, “Oh, I’m sorry. I just had this one thing. I had to get out of the way.” I was like, “Really?”
Katie: That shows you where the interview wasn’t important.
Carol: Right. I don’t think he wanted the job.
Katie: So the wrap-up for this tip. Let’s read it again. Identify what feminine integrity looks like and live toward leading with it.
That’s the first on a series of lots of tips – because they come from Skirt Strategies: 249 Success Tips for Women in Leadership.
And if you like it and you want to hear more about the tips – our next one in the podcast series will be Tip Number 2: Growing your credibility by getting certifications where you can and the value of self-development around…
Carol: Don’t go into it a bunch because we’re going to podcast on it.
Katie: Yeah. I’m trying to do a teaser.
Carol: Alright. So stay tuned.
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That’s it for this episode of the Skirt Strategies podcast. Thank you for joining us and please be sure to leave a question or comment at skirtstrategies.com. Remember that success comes when you lead – using your natural female strengths.
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