bigstock-Brave-woman-greeting-stormy-oc-13210928Katie and Carol talk with Dr. Jackie Hood, Professor at the University of New Mexico Anderson School of Management regarding power and influence.

 

Once you’ve heard Dr. Hood, see how to best improve your own influence through the 5 BE’s of Power & Influence, especially for women.

 

 

PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION

 

[MUSIC PLAYS]

 

Hello and welcome to the Skirt Strategies podcast! The podcast to help you get the support, validation and skills you need to accomplish your goals and really succeed in a male-dominated world – all without having to give up your incredible female strengths.

Carol: Hi! I’m Carol.

Katie: Katie Snapp here! And we’re back with another episode. It’s a great episode because we’re talking about something most women are intrigued with. “Power and Influence.”

Carol: And we have a special guest.

Katie: We do. We’re going to introduce our guest right now. Dr. Jackie Hood. Hi Jackie!

Jackie: Hi Katie!

Katie: Jackie is a Professor at the Anderson School of Management at the University of New Mexico. She’s the Department Chair for the Organizational Studies and she’s been in Anderson for about 25 years.

She’s known in this community and regionally as pretty much of an expert in her field of expertise – which is Organizational Development and Organizational Behavior. And she serves in many other leadership roles – past and present at the University.

So welcome! We’re glad to have you here today!

Jackie: Well, thank you Katie! I’m delighted to be here.

Katie: Jackie and I crossed paths a lot – being in town. In fact, all three of us probably do quite a bit. It’s a small town when we’re talking about Albuquerque.

But we’re talking Nationally today. So for those of you that are interested – What is it that you guys do? What’s going on?

Jackie and I serve together as instructors at Anderson School of Management. She of course, is there fulltime. But we teach in the Women’s Certificate Program. There’s a Women’s Leadership Certificate Program – brand new. In fact, I ought to just promote it because there’s not that many around the country and we’ve got one here in New Mexico.

But one of the key areas – in fact, it’s a hugely popular area within that Certificate Program – is where women portray themselves as holders of influence and power and how different it is.

Jackie: Well, yes it is different and it’s the same. So there’s a little bit of both. I mean, power comes to us from other people. There’s really no other way to garner power because power is actually just influence over another person or over other people.

And sometimes, it gets a bad name. I mean, lots of people when they hear the term “power” and it almost frightens them. And the fact of the matter is – it gets its bad name because people don’t use it in the right manner. They have a tendency to not understand power and not deal with it effectively. And so what happens is they tend to abuse their power and then power gets a bad name.

But power itself – its ability to influence others is a wonderful thing. As a matter of fact, we all work in Organizations. Generally, higher architectural structures, built on power and politics. And so, we need to understand it.

Katie: It’s leadership.

Jackie: Absolutely. Power is the way to get people to do things and it is so much an important part of the leadership.

Katie: I guess it has that connotation of control.

Carol: Kind of. Well, and then you have to use it correctly. You can’t use it for evil, right?

Katie: It should be good for good and not for evil.

Jackie: That’s true.

Katie: Well, do women shy away from it because it sounds like a strength thing?

Jackie: Well, I think what happens actually – is most Organizations again, tend to be male-based. So they started as military structures or a long, long time ago when it was all primarily men. And so, that culture of business Organizations tends to carry over. So it’s competitive and aggressive and that sort of thing. And so then, women entering into that culture have to figure out how to adapt and how to fit in and in fact, how to use their power effectively to be effective leaders.

And that can differ slightly. However, I’ll tell you – if you will ask people out there, if you ask 10 people – “What does it take to be an effective leader?” They will pretty much come up with the same things over and over and over again. And both men and women can exhibit those traits and characteristics to be effective leaders.

Katie: Well, at Skirt Strategies – we tend to think that women go into those male-dominated workplace and think you have to do things the way a man does – is power one of those things that… It’s actually quite fine to emulate the way a man is influencing and controlling for a woman or does a woman do it differently?

Jackie: Only if you’re looking in an effective leader man because there are so many examples of ineffective leaders and ineffective managers, unfortunately – out in the world.

So the fact of the matter is – leadership involves both traits like honesty, integrity, trust, as well as behaviors – such as communicating effectively, using your power effectively, influencing others effectively. And those things (at least the behavior side of it) can be certainly learned by anyone. Now, how people interpret it – are going to vary the perception of how that plays out, for men and women can certainly be different.

Carol: And we just had this conversation about something that Sheryl Stenberg said in her interview on Book TV.

Katie: How women are perceived. Yeah, on Book TV [Inaudible][0:05:15.1].

Carol: Women are perceived to be aggressive – where men under the same circumstances are not perceived to be aggressive. Women are perceived to be aggressive, but that’s not true. I mean, we’re just trying to get something done.

Jackie: Exactly. So it’s a little tricky here for women.

Carol: Right.

Jackie: I mean, one of the keys to being good communicators, to use assertive communication – and assertive communication means being both caring as well as strong.

So it means putting yourself out there and saying, “This is what I’m saying. This is what I mean. Here’s where I’m at.” But then turning around and saying, “Where are you at?”

And obviously, there’s some gender bias there. I mean, men are generally taught to go ahead and say straightforward what they think, but less likely to be taught to show a lot of sharing and vice versa for women.

So men can be seen… if they saw the caring side in that assertive communication, they can be seen as rather weak or ineffective in that way. And if women show the strong part in that communication, they can be perceived as overly aggressive. And we all know what term people tend to use for that.

Katie: I don’t know what you’re talking about. And women – as they move up the ladder in the hierarchy of an Organization are less liked. I believe I heard this study as well.

So men are seen as the more influential and people like them more – whereas women are seen as less liked. That’s a drag.

Jackie: Right. Yeah.

Katie: I hate not being liked!

Carol: Well, yeah. It’s not a popularity contest at some point though.

Katie: Oh, okay.

Jackie: But I think that was part of… I think Sheryl Stenberg also agrees with you on that. “The higher up you move, the less liked you are.” And I think that again, just a sort of dependent on the individual…

And I’ll give you an example. In a larger Organization here in Albuquerque, it’s a federal Organization, very large – and lots of scientist and also, it’s the people. One of the VP’s in that Organization who’s retired now, made it a point. It was the man to show the caring side.

And what he did is he would… while he had his Admin actually write them all down, but he sent a birthday card to absolutely every employee and he literally had about 3,000 to 4,000 employees under him.

Carol: Wow!

Jackie: And they would keep tracking. He even write a personal card to those people. So you know? He’s doing many a day.

Katie: Right.

Jackie: But it was so effective that to this day (and he’s been retired for about 10 years) they still talk about him as being the best VP they ever had.

Carol: Wow!

Katie: What a lesson for men.

Jackie: Yeah.

Katie: Maybe easy or at least, a simple thing for a man to do is to add that side of a leadership skill that is seen more female.

Jackie: And that’s the likability side. And again, people can do things to be more likable, like being open and accessible emotionally to other, showing empathy when it’s called for or sympathy, when it’s called for, engaging in the social exchange – like this guy did with the birthday card.

So again, effective leaders can certainly exhibit these behaviors and be more likable. And likability is one of those power basis. In other words, if people like you, they will have a tendency to share information with you, they’ll have a tendency to reward you, put you on important taskforces and so on.

Katie: They do things for you.

Jackie: Absolutely. And a lot of times… I mean, if you think of the most disagreeable person you’ve ever worked with.

Katie: Okay. Let me think…

Jackie: The one everyone runs away from when they walk in the room.

Katie: Right. I have it in mind right now.

Jackie: Those people tend to think they have lots and lots of power because they walk in a room and everybody scuttles out and they say, “See? I cleared another room.” Okay, powerful.

Katie: Right.

Carol: It’s like a conquer, right?

Katie: This goes back to that delusional discussion.

Carol: Yeah, it does.

Jackie: The problem with that of course – is that isn’t power. Because if you go back to one of the original things I said – is that power is given to you by others, you cannot command it. People make choices about who they give power to.

Then in fact, acting like that means people are going to take power away from you. They won’t want to work for you. They won’t want to do things for you. Again, they won’t give you information you might need, that sort of thing. And those are the things that give you power. Having information, having people willingly want to work with and for you. Those are powerful.

Katie: I love that!

Carol: That is a wonderful kind of…

Katie: It’s a different perspective.

Carol: It’s a frame way to think about power.

Katie: So here I am – listening as a woman. I know that our followers are probably listening and thinking, “Oh! Give me what should I do. So if there were strategies that I could take – Do you have a list of some of them or some quick study?”

Jackie: I can give you some ideas. There’s many studies that discuss where power comes from. And so, I’ll just give you a few. But there’s a lot more than this.

One of course is… Well, okay. Let me start with the most powerful one. One if referent power – and that means, people revering, looking up to you, respecting you, wanting to be like you, okay?

And in order to have that happen, obviously you have to act in ways that people would then want to give you referent power over them. But it is in fact, the most powerful power.

Katie: It’s universal.

Carol: And how much of that, Jackie – is liked, I’m liked or people like m or they like my personality?

Jackie: It goes beyond that. I mean, likability is another one. It’s a different source of power.

Katie: Oh, okay.

Jackie: So that’s a different one. This one goes beyond that. I mean, obviously if I hate your guts, I’m not going to give you a referent power. But you could be a likable person and still not have referent power because I’m not wanting to be like you, looking up to you in that way and saying, “Katie is the one I want to emulate.” Right?

Katie: Okay.

Jackie: But if they say, “You’re the one I want to emulate. You’re my role model for what an effective leader is.” That’s referent power. Okay? So it’s the respect, trust that goes beyond just being likable.

Katie: It wouldn’t be something we went to class for.

Jackie: No.

Carol: Well, it is the pillars that you learn in grade school, right?

Jackie: Absolutely, it is respect, integrity.

Katie: Character.

Jackie: It’s those things. It’s a lot of character basis to it.

Katie: Yeah.

Jackie: And in fact, we might… You know, you say you can’t learn, but in fact, we can become aware of our behaviors. And whether if we’re actually exhibiting those traits… I mean, I think we all have it within us. It’s just a matter of where are we in our lives and have we been exhibiting those things that we know are more effective for us as individuals, as well for the people around us?

Katie: We talked recently about charisma. And I think charisma kind of falls in that same category. You kind of think you have it or you don’t. But there are aspects of charisma that some skills like being attentive that you build, that you actually can tune in.

Some people… you know, maybe they’re real zero’s and they won’t ever get anywhere with it or they have a blank face or I don’t know what they might have.

Carol: But those people aren’t listening to this podcast.

Katie: They’re not our followers.

Carol: That’s right.

Jackie: Well, charisma is closely related. I mean, it has some aspects. But sometimes you find people with charisma that actually lead people in a very bad or unethical direction.

Katie: True.

Jackie: And we can think of historical examples, right? So what do you guys think? Who’s had charisma that you know historically?

Katie: I’m thinking about some sort of religious based followers.

Carol: Well, I always think of Gandhi as terribly charismatic. But there’s also those horrible ones that drink cool aid.

Katie: Drinking the cool aid.

Jackie: Yeah. What was I…

Katie: Putting on the tennis shoes. Jones from Jonesville, right?

Carol: Right.

Katie: Was his name Jones?

Carol: I don’t know.

Katie: It doesn’t matter.

Jackie: Okay. So one major difference there – is nobody is going to give referent power to someone like that. No one that is a thinking individual that is a whole person and can analytically look at what’s going on around them would say – that isn’t referent power, that’s some kind of strange charisma and people aren’t really thinking about what they’re doing.

Katie: A little bit of brainwashing perhaps in that case.

Carol: Okay. So let’s keep moving because we’re getting…

Katie: Okay. So referent power…

Jackie: So many other sources. Obviously, there’s legitimate power which is hierarchy. Interestingly enough, that one is the weakest power.

Katie: So that’s like position power.

Jackie: That is position power.

Katie: Okay.

Jackie: And so it’s the weakest power. And I know that’s counter intuitive. Everyone thinks you would get in the position – you have this whole ultimate power.

But if you go back to a couple of things and then I’ll give you an example. But if you go back to the idea that other people give you power… So let’s say you have the position, but you’re a total jerk and no one wants to work for you and you abuse people and so on. What happens?

Carol: You end up losing the job, right?

Jackie: Possibly. Let’s hope so.

Carol: Yeah.

Jackie: Usually, those kinds of jerks actually manage up quite well.

Katie: Let’s move them out of the way and promote them.

Jackie: Yeah. That’s a problem. But the people that work for you will leave, right?

And here’s another really important point. Power is one way, it’s given to you by others and they can take them away. So if you misuse your power or abuse people, they will leave – or if they don’t leave, they’ll shut down.

I’m sure that many of your listeners out there have been in the same position I’ve been in – where you’ve worked occasionally for someone that is just not a nice person, just really abusive towards others. And maybe you feel stocked, maybe you feel like – “I can’t leave right now.”

But I’ll tell you, that person is going to get absolutely minimal performance rather the people around them, they’ll try to avoid them like the plague, try not to do what they tell them to do.

So it’s a very, very weak power. It’s only there for that time period that you happen to work for them. And it’s super weak because if it’s not backed by referent or some of these other powers that I might mention, it’s not going to go anywhere. You’re not going to be able to be effective as a leader.

Katie: You get compliance and not commitment – as I say. They don’t have their heart in it for you.

Jackie: Absolutely. Okay. So I’ve talked about the strongest and the weakest.

Carol: Okay. Good.

Jackie: But there are many other sources. So there’s things like expertise and that will get you obviously, a lot of power. And certainly, at least over the area you have expertise then.

Katie: Because you have the answers. Boy! People would go to you for that.

Jackie: Because you have the correct answers.

Katie: Yeah, the correct answers. Or you can talk them into the answers, I don’t know. The correct answer is better.

Jackie: The correct answers. We hope. If you’re the expert. So expertise is another strong type of power. The one little thing that everyone needs to be aware of – is not to be too much of a narrow expert. Why not?

Katie: Because it’s not broad.

Jackie: Good one.

Carol: Katie – you’re so brilliant!

Katie: We use the term broad a lot on Skirt Strategies.

Jackie: Because what can happen – is you can be perceived as knowing that particular area. Let’s say you’re the Human Resources and you’re the compensation expert.

So we would say – “Carol over there is the compensation expert. She’s really, really good at that. But boy! We need a VP of HR. Does she know anything else?”

Katie: Right. You get stuck in a role.

Jackie: Yes. Plus, we could say – “Carol. She’s the compensation expert. We can’t move Carol. What would we do without Carol?”

Katie: There you go. Okay. So we become very dependent on her for that very small area.

Jackie: So being a generalist – perceived as someone of a generalist as well, will add to your power. So you need to broaden your base. Be an expert. Be good at what you do. But also try to gather some other skills.

And you know, you can do that. Let’s say you are the compensation expert and that’s what you do. There’s many opportunities in most Organizations to broaden those skills, to join committees or task forces or projects that will help you meet other people, build your networks and your social capital, as well as your expertise levels and your generalizability.

Katie: Sweet!

Carol: Interesting. Yeah. I love it!

Katie: So there’s value in becoming an expert.

Carol: But then there’s also value in expanding your expertise. It’s so good.

Jackie: Definitely. Oh, and you have to be competent.

Katie: And you have to be competent.

Jackie: Yeah. Otherwise, your chances are – you won’t be promoted. Sometimes you still are, but you won’t be respected. And there we go back again to referent power.

Carol: Right.

Jackie: Who do they look up to? They look up to people who are at least, competent in the technical or whatever the area is that they’re overseeing.

Katie: Okay. Good! Keep going. Loving this!

Jackie: Okay. So there’s many more – some of which we can do stuff about and some we can’t. One is centrality. And this gets close to my earlier [Inaudible][0:17:49.6], social capital and social network.

And centrality means – being central to the work or information flow in the Organization. And the more central you are, the more information you have and that will give you some power.

Again, power is an ability because you have it, you may never use it. The choice is up to you and how you use it. Again, that influence strategy is very, very important as well.

Katie: So I’m in the thick of things, I know what’s going on. It kind of makes me an expert – so to speak because now, I’m the go-to person for answers. But if I’m not a good communicator, people don’t know to go to me for that.

Jackie: And if I don’t have connections. So yes, I need to be the kind of person. So you can see how these things actually add to each other – the likability, the referent, the centrality. People need to be willing to go to you. You could have all the information. But if you’re a horrible obnoxious person, it doesn’t do you any good. And by the way, your information set will start to shrink – because again, people won’t be talking to you.

Katie: Right.

Carol: Got it.

Jackie: But if you are a likable person and you happen to be central to the information flow… And I’ll ask you this question. Who’s often central to the information flow, but considered low status and low power in most organizations?

Katie: The Admin.

Jackie: And if you’ve ever messed an Admin over, you know what I’m talking about.

Carol: True.

Jackie: They have a tremendous amount of power – those folks in those positions. Because they know what’s going on. They know everything that’s happening in that Organization. And many times, in order to get to some of the higher level people, you have to go through that person. And if you don’t have a good relationship with them, there is no way you’re going to get there.

Katie: Exactly. They also control the higher level people’s schedules so they can be the bulldog at the door.

Carol: The gatekeeper. Yeah, and I’ve always said – The theory is – you treat everybody fabulously because you’ll never know who’s going to be the gatekeeper, who’s going be in a greater position than you at some point in your life. And that’s worked for me every time. There are people that worked for me years ago that are now in ways I’m working for them.

Jackie: Absolutely. Especially you mentioned Albuquerque earlier…

Katie: Yeah. It’s a small town.

Jackie: It’s the biggest small town there is, right? Or the smallest big town? I don’t know how they say it. The biggest small town. Because it is. If you live here long enough, you pretty much run into everybody several times that lives here.

Katie: Yup.

Carol: That’s right.

Jackie: So you do have to build those relationships and maintain them. It’s not a good idea to harm relationships. And that’s true for all leaders – especially women.

Whenever you go into any kind of interaction with anyone, any communication, realize there are two parts to that communication. Whatever the task is you’re trying to get done, but also the relationship.

And talking in that person or whatever you’re trying to do. If you keep those two in mind that those are both very important goals, you’ll be much more effective. If you forget to get the task done and it’s all about the relationship, obviously that’s not going to work for a leader. But vice versa – If you’re only about the task and it’s just like – “Hey, I want this done and I don’t really care. You all work for me.” That’s not going to work for you either.

Carol: Sometimes. I mean, that’s the kind of person I am. If we’re putting together a meeting, everybody comes in the room. “I want to get to work right away.”

The interesting thing – I see the guys in the room talking about golf, talking about this, talking about families. You know what? I have to learn from that. But it is also – I think kind of a female trait to get right down to business. And I don’t know if that’s actually a female trait or a Carol trait. But I do know that I need to start building those relationships that are… You know, I know their families. I should be asking them about them.

Jackie: Yeah. So we just have to be aware of those two sides and you don’t have to overdo one over the other or change yourself radically. But you do have to be aware that those are involved in every conversation, every interaction, every meeting, everything that you do.

So okay, we’ve covered referent, reward, legitimate, expertise. I’ll give you one more. How is that?

Carol: Good.

Katie: Okay.

Jackie: Oh, I don’t think we covered reward. But that’s alright.

Katie: I don’t think we did. We did hierarchy.

Jackie: And that’s it. The one more that I’ll give you is visibility. And again, you want to be visible to… obviously, the other people with power, ability to influence, but really to everybody.

So whatever you do when you’re out there. And this is particularly true for women, I think – who are taught to be modest or our version of modest, okay? We need to let people know when we’ve done a good job. And it’s very easy to turn an excellent report project over to your boss. And if you’ve got a good boss, the good boss would say something like this – “This is terrific! Great work! It’s so good I’m going to take it up to the board to show them or the president or whoever.” And what could you say to that?

Katie: “Thank you.” And accept the compliment.

Jackie: Yes. “Thank you.” And accept the compliment. And add one other thing to that. What else would you say?

Carol: “I’m glad you noticed.”

Jackie: That’s really good too. You guys are good!

Katie: “Take credit.”

Jackie: You’re excellent at the communication. I’ll add you one more to that.

Carol: Okay.

Jackie: That’s probably bad English. But anyway, and that is say – “Well, boss. That’s great! I’m really glad you like it. I worked hard on it. And you know, maybe I should go with you in case they have some particular questions that need to be answered.”

Katie: Awesome! And a woman would hardly ever opt herself in for something like that.

Carol: And that comes back with what Sheryl Stenberg says about – “Take your place at the table.”

Jackie: Exactly. Yeah.

Carol: There is no reason that you shouldn’t be in that room with those people when you put the report together.

Jackie: Absolutely.

Katie: Well, we’re still used to being accommodating. And I think sometimes, we’re often accommodating around other sensitivities and egos. And we’ll opt out and we’ll say, “Oh, okay. You go ahead.” Or “I don’t want to take the sunshine that you’re getting. I want to also make sure that I get some credit certainly.” But if it’s the expensive you, we won’t step on their ego. We’re careful about that.

Jackie: Right. Exactly! And we need the visibility. We need to be there.

Katie: We need to just do it.

Carol: Yeah.

Jackie: Even the best boss is going to go to that president and say, “Hey President! Look what my employee, Katie did for me.” But who is the president seeing? They’re still seeing the boss, right?

Katie: The boss.

Jackie: Most bosses aren’t quite that good either. They might say, “Hey. Look what my team did. Hey. Look what I did.”

Carol: Sure.

Katie: Yes. I get that a lot. I get a lot of women that will say he took credit for it or he casually said it came from his Department without really giving me credit.

So this is a way that a woman can insert herself – when she first delivers the product or whatever she did to accomplish something. Where she inserts herself and says, “Let me go with you.” And then, you know, he still keeps her from going and so what? At some point, you can only do so much, right?

Jackie: Yeah.

Carol: Put your name all over the report.

Jackie: I could tell you a story about that too, but… A good boss will recognize that for what it is and say, “Well, sure. Come along.”

So if you’re in that position, you’ll be fine. And they just might not think of it off hand and all you’re doing is adding a dimension that’s actually going to be helpful for them because they didn’t write the report. And if someone else does have a question, you’re right there to help them with it.

Katie: Well, I always kept the only copy that was not in disappearing ink. They had to come to me. That’s power.

Carol: See? That’s real power. That’s obnoxious too.

Katie: It might be manipulative control.

Jackie: I actually knew a Mail Manager who had paid a Consulting Firm to do a study for him. He happened to be the controller of an Organization. And he paid $30,000 in a Consulting Firm. This is what they do. They put their name on every page to the thing.

Well, I happen to know the Admin that work for this guy and she told me that he handed her that 50 page report that he paid $30,000 for and he had to retype the whole thing on Company Stationary and put his name on the top of it.

Katie: Oh!

Carol: Wow!

Jackie: So that is a very unethical Manager.

Carol: There is something wrong with that, isn’t there?

Jackie: Yeah.

Carol: I have a burning question. And because we have Jackie here – and Jackie does research on power and influence and women and Organizations. What’s the most interesting fact that you’ve uncovered in your research pertaining to women in the workplace?

Jackie: Well, I think what’s most interesting to me – I don’t know if it’d be interesting to everybody. But for me, the fact that women entering into business cultures are really entering into a male-based culture. And understanding that from the get go can help them adapt. And people can adapt in…

Well, first of all – there’s two concepts that are out there. One is called “Acculturation.” The other one is called “Assimilation.” And it’s been studied a lot with immigrants – like entering into countries.

Anyway, with Acculturation – basically, what happens is you take on the characteristics and traits of the people around you. So in this case, it would be women acting like men, right?

Carol: Sure.

Katie: Because if it’s an aggressive, competitive culture – well, then I’m going go on the meeting and I want to make sure I talk loud and I’m going to interrupt people and I’m going to do all of that.

And then, there’s this concept of assimilation. And assimilation means – no matter the fact that you could be acculturated, you could be doing the things that other successful people do, but you still might not be assimilated.

And so that’s the trick. It’s finding the Organizations that allow for assimilation or embrace – I should say, diversity of all types including female diversity. Because without that, if you have an Organization that doesn’t assimilate different people very well, this can be very difficult to work your way to the top of that Organization.

You can look at different industries and see that. Some industries manufacturing banking – very, very male-centered. Lots of VP now – women in banking. So that’s changing a little bit. And even some Presidents. But for a long, long time, it was just the male…

Carol: You couldn’t move your way up.

Jackie: Very difficult.

Katie: Does a male-based culture mean that it’s necessary male-dominated? Or when women say to me – “I’m not in a male-dominated workplace.” Does it mean they still operate like a male-based culture or they could?

Jackie: What happens with immigrants and with women or whoever moves into a culture – and it goes back to really old research that Elizabeth Moss cantered in the 70’s. And that is – When you get to a certain number, then the culture can adapt a little bit. But if you’re still the token, you’re not going to be able to change things much as a token person. So getting those numbers in place can make a big difference.

Katie: Okay.

Carol: So tipping point type. Yeah.

Katie: Yeah. We refer to that quite a bit because women will say, “I feel like I’m just swimming upstream.” And at some point, if you’re really the oddity, you’re really the person that sticks out – you can only do so much before it looks like you’re just not fitting it at all.

Jackie: Right.

Katie: It goes back to that balance. At what point do you try a little bit? Try pushing it a little bit – versus making too many waves.

Jackie: Yeah. That’s a question we all have to ask. Where is the tipping point? I think.

Carol: Where is the balance?

Jackie: And it’s going to vary a little bit… again, by the Organization, by the people around you and the culture of that Organization.

Katie: Okay.

Carol: And your personality. Does your personality get totally taken over in this or because I’m a strong woman, I would do okay in some of these Organizations?

Jackie: Well, again that’s…

Carol: I’d be bowling them over – I’m telling you.

Jackie: Obviously, personality is bound to play. You know, there’s a lot of studies and a lot of topics and this is one of them. So is it personality or is it the culture? And of course, it’s probably a little bit of both.

Carol: Sure.

Jackie: And so, trying to figure out that balance and how I fit in. I mean, men have to do this to some extent. It’s just much more difficult balance for women – I think.

Katie: Oh, lots to think about.

Carol: Lots to think about.

Katie: Oh, Doctor Hood. Thank you for being here.

Jackie: Sure.

Katie: Is there anything else you wanted to add? Anything that just kind of burning for you that you want to leave folks with to remember?

Jackie: I think the main thing is – if you want to build your power and influence in Organizations, be aware that it comes from others, that you cannot command it. And so, the way you act in the world towards others is going to make all the difference in the world. But be conscious. There are some other things you can do. Like expertise, like visibility, like even legitimate power.

You can find other ways to gain power, but your strongest one is going to be your relationships with others – how you treat people, how you act in the world.

Katie: Good stuff for our followers because this is exactly why our followers listen to us – to find out what can we do better to be more an effective women leaders.

Carol: That was a powerful talk on power.

Katie: It was a powerful talk. In fact, I’m exhausted.

That’s going to be our time this session. We thank Jackie for being with us this time.

Carol: Yes. Thank you.

Katie: And of course, those of you that want to know more, there’s always information at skirtstrategies.com.

If you’re not a regular follower, there is a free membership on every page you can sign up at Skirt Strategies. But we also have a subscribed membership for those that like to be pinged regularly. They like to have a small assignment each week or they like to listen to a podcast.

Do not hesitate to follow us there. We love our followers. We’re a band of women. Remember, we’re not just training, we’re a social cause.

 

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That’s it for this episode of Skirt Strategies podcast. Thank you for joining us! And don’t forget to leave a comment at skirtstrategiespodcast.com. Remember that success comes when you lead – using your natural female strengths.

 

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